Lifting the Lid on Engagement

Rethinking Social Licence with Dr Nick Fleming

Why do technically sound projects still face fierce community opposition? And why do organisations keep making the same mistakes?

In this episode of Lifting the Lid, Michelle Weston and Max Hardy are joined by Dr Nick Fleming for a conversation about social licence, community opposition and how we approach complex and contentious projects.

From data centres and coal seam gas to organisational fear, trust and leadership, Nick challenges us to look beyond better engagement and ask what the wider system is telling us.

We explore why more information isn't always the answer, how fear can shape the behaviour of both communities and organisations, and what happens when we stop trying to “manage” stakeholders and start asking different questions.

Nick also shares a great story from the coal seam gas industry, where changing just one question completely shifted the conversation with farmers and uncovered what really mattered to them.

And we look at what it means to move upstream, thinking earlier about value, legacy and the conditions for success before plans become locked in.

00:00 Welcome to Lifting the Lid
00:24 Meet Dr Nick Fleming
03:10 Rethinking social licence
07:06 What does good social licence look like?
10:43 Why technically sound projects still face opposition
13:54 When more information isn't the answer
16:35 Fear inside organisations and communities
18:20 The problem with “stakeholder management”
23:24 Why organisations keep making the same mistakes
25:36 The farmers story: changing the question
31:25 Data centres and the social licence challenge
35:23 What boards and senior leaders need to do differently
38:38 Moving upstream: thinking earlier about value and legacy
40:49 Pause and ask better questions
43:06 A challenge for engagement practitioners
46:40 Wrap up

Dr Nick Fleming is the founder of Innergise. Trained as an engineer, his work spans complex problem solving, systems thinking, strategy and leadership.

He is the author of Smashing the State of Dumb-Stuck and co-author, with Susanne Cooper, of Insight Trading.

Episode 4 | Show Notes

In this episode Michelle and Max are joined by Isabella GiaVulva, self-described community engagement drag queen, participation consultant extraordinaire, and the performer behind the hit conference show Off Leash.

Through comedy, music and satire, Isabella holds a mirror up to the engagement sector: its jargon, its rituals, its contradictions and its very real human cost. Her signature show follows a fictional dog park consultation at Grayvale City Council, and if you've ever facilitated a community process, you'll recognise every single moment.

Timestamps

• 00:05 Welcome and acknowledgement of country
• 00:49 Introduction of Isabella GiaVulva
• 02:58 How Isabella came to exist / origin story
• 07:01 Why satire? What does it let you say that traditional engagement can't?
• 09:47 About Off Leash, the dog park consultation show
• 12:21 What engagement professionals have said after seeing the show
• 13:31 The emotional toll: aggressive engagement, burnout and mental health
• 17:12 Paul's Park song (begins)
• 22:23 Paul's Park song (plays in full)
• 26:39 Jack (the person behind Isabella) joins the conversation / the mask metaphor
• 32:00 It's not just practitioners who cry, clients and community too
• 33:17 The power of simple questions and the follow-up "why?"
• 35:03 What the sector gets wrong: KPIs, counting the wrong things
• 36:22 Storytelling vs data: reports nobody reads
• 38:41 Seeing yourself reflected in Isabella, the good days and the bad
• 40:30 Listening well vs feeding it back well
• 44:06 What's next: the redundancy show and improv classes for practitioners
• 49:21 How to find Isabella / wrap-up
• 49:46 Outro

What we cover in this episode:

• How Isabella came to exist, from Rocky Horror at age 10 to the "death slot" at an IAP2 Canada conference in Banff
• Why satire is such a powerful tool for unpacking the sector's messiest truths, the things you can't say in a case study
• The Off Leash show: what it is, how it was built on 40+ hours of interviews with practitioners, and why a fictional dog park became the perfect vehicle
• The emotional and mental health toll of engagement work, being yelled at, going home and crying, and why "being a good listener doesn't mean you're great at being yelled at"
• The mask practitioners put on, and what happens when it gets chipped away
• What the sector gets wrong: formulaic questions, decision-makers who've already made up their minds, and reports nobody reads past the executive summary
• The power of the simple follow-up question: why?
• What's next for Isabella: an online show about redundancy, and improv classes for engagement practitioners

The Paul's Park song, a deeply moving letter from a community member about the park where his late husband first kissed him. Bring tissues.

Links:

Lifting the Lid on Magical Moments, Global Impact and Legacy - with Becky Hirst

In this rich and wide-ranging conversation, Max Hardy and Michelle Weston sit down with Becky Hirst - founder of HeyEngage, author, podcaster, keynote speaker and one of the most recognised voices in community engagement globally - to explore the magical moments that keep practitioners going, what it takes to build a global impact, and the legacy one of our sector's most passionate advocates is determined to leave behind.

From her early days as a community involvement officer in Gloucester in 1999, through to a breast cancer diagnosis that sharpened her focus and urgency, Becky shares the insights, frustrations and moments of magic that have shaped nearly three decades of extraordinary practice.

Key Topics

• The journey into community engagement - and what keeps practitioners going
• Why engagement skills are hard skills, not soft ones
• The "flip" - turning sceptics into advocates
• The slogans problem and the razzle dazzle trappings of the sector
• Podcasting as a tool for learning, connection and global reach
• Navigating a breast cancer diagnosis while running a global practice
• The future of community engagement - deconstructed, human and back to basics
• Getting engagement to the board table and into the C-suite
• Legacy, scale and reaching every corner of the world

Chapters

00:00 Introduction

03:37 Becky's journey into community engagement

06:35 Moments of magic — what keeps practitioners going

11:26 Frustrations in the sector

12:56 The podcasting journey — from Thought Bubbles to For the Love of Community Engagement

19:00 Personal challenges and community engagement

21:00 The future of community engagement — 2040 and beyond

24:33 Advice for new practitioners

28:18 Looking ahead: strategic and executive-level engagement

31:19 Getting engagement to the board table

33:20 Profound questions in community engagement

34:17 The slogans problem

35:13 The changing nature of citizens and institutions

36:23 Going where the people are

37:47 Community engagement and democracy

39:29 The emotional cost on practitioners

40:47 Legacy and scale

42:27 A global perspective from an Australian home base

Find Becky Hirst at any of the links below:

In this engaging conversation, Max Hardy and Michelle Weston explore the complexities of community engagement, emphasising the importance of a leap of faith, agility, and shared responsibility in navigating unpredictable processes.

They share real-world stories, practical tips, and insights to help practitioners build trust, resilience, and meaningful connections in their work.

Key Topics

• The concept of leap of faith in community work
• Managing unpredictability and surprises in engagement processes
• Building trust and respect through valuing contributions
• The importance of shared responsibility and humility
• Real world stories of engagement successes and setbacks

Chapters

04:24 - Navigating Uncertainty in Engagement Processes

09:43 - The Impact of External Factors on Engagement

13:47 - Shifting Mindsets: From Risk to Opportunity

15:54 - Understanding Control in Engagement Processes

21:14 - The Power of Reflection in Engagement

23:16 - Top Tips for Effective Community Engagement

24:52 - Ending notes

In this first ‘Lifting the Lid’ podcast episode hosted by Michelle Weston and Max Hardy – Liz Weaver discusses her extensive experience with transitions in both personal and professional contexts, particularly through her work with the Tamarack Institute.