Humanize Me

Dear Friends,

Almost 10 years ago, I recorded the first episode of The Wonder-full Podcast, which turned into Humanize Me the following year. Over the course of the roughly 230 episodes that followed, you and I have enjoyed talking to scientists, artists, community builders, influencers, authors, and each other about how to make the most of this life by building loving relationships, cultivating our senses of wonder and gratitude, and making meaning by making things better for other people. Frankly, engineering that shared journey with my dear friend John Wright has been one of the greatest privileges of my life. So then, I think it is quite fitting that in this final episode, John helps me explain why that journey must come to an end.

What is impossible to explain, I’m afraid, is the deep gratitude I am feeling for each and every one of you listeners, and especially to those who have actively supported the podcast with your encouragement, ideas, and financial support. As you’ll hear, both John and I hope this isn’t the last time we dust off our mics and fire up that Humanize Me theme song, but in the meantime we want you to know that the podcast feed with all its episodes, along with the website, social media accounts and Facebook Group will all stay live, so that old friends can come back for a visit and folks like us can stumble onto our kind of hope. To that end, we've pulled together a short list of all-time favorites at HumanizeMePodcast.com.

Please feel free to reach out to me at BartCampolo.org if you’ve got a question or a story, or just want to share what the podcast has meant to you. Rest assured, I’ll be thrilled to hear from you. After all, my ankles are creakier, my public profile is lower, and my wee bit of hair is seriously gray, but my commitment to building and maintaining humanizing connections hasn’t waned a bit. Thank you so much for listening to John and me over these years. One way or another, I have a hunch we’ll see you again… on Humanize Me.

Much love,

Bart

Brian McLaren's new book defines 'doom' as, "The psychological sense that we know our problems are bigger than our solutions." In this episode, he and Bart talk about their fears for the future, a potential collapse in our way of life, how they think about 'hope', and what kinds of things are likely to help people in the worst-case scenarios.

As Brian warns in his book, this is not a conversation for those who aren't already in a fairly secure place emotionally or psychologically.

"Bart, in your episode with Devin Moss you mentioned envying his role as a humanist chaplain for someone on death row, because he could throw himself into totally being there for that man, knowing it was only for a limited amount of time. That sounded easier to you than committing to love a needy person with lots of life ahead of them. That one strange comment has raised a lot of questions for me: Do we really have to be there for someone throughout every stupid thing they do? Why can't we just be there for an episode or two and then move on? Why can't somebody else step up once in a while? ... Obviously, we all have limited amounts of time, energy and emotional capacity. Essentially, I guess I'm asking: what do you think are the limits of our responsibilities to others?"

Bart and John discuss.

Those whose answer to their religion is 'Nothing in particular' make up an increasing number of the population of the United States. They're part of a larger group of 'nones' who differ in many ways, even among each other. In this episode, Bart dives into the most recent data with Alan Cooperman from the Pew Research Center, who talks about religious trends in America, behavior of religious groups, levels of engagement with group organization of various kinds, and how an increase in isolation may play a part. If you're most interested in the data itself, we start to get into the nitty gritty around 15 mins into this episode.

Brian Swimme is an evolutionary cosmologist whose latest book, Cosmogenesis, is autobiographical, but is also an attempt to tell the story of the universe as science knows it, placing human beings inside the story. Brian believes that, properly told, the story is awe-inspiring, beautiful and unifying, and potentially a foundation for a better world. In this episode, Bart tries to understand Brian's work, and how he seeks to 'turn others on' to what inspires him about our universe.

In the last of three episodes on 'high disclosure relationships', Bart gets to know someone in depth from scratch - a Humanize Me listener called Patti, who turns out to be as wonderful as we could have hoped - and in the process, provides an example of such conversations to inspire you to do the same.

Bart shares a tool he's used often to connect with people in the manner discussed in episode 901 with Rich Slatcher.

Rich Slatcher is a psychologist who is the current Gail M. Williamson Distinguished Professor in the Behavior and Brain Sciences area of the Department of Psychology at the University of Georgia. In this conversation with Bart Campolo, he talks about the power of self-disclosure in relationships, and the other factors which draw people closer to each other.

A 'Q&R' episode where a listener question about truth leads to morality via Dan Dennett.

Bart talks with prominent evangelical Christian author Philip Yancey, whose books have been instrumental in supporting the faith of many Christians and whose recent memoir, Where the Light Fell, led to this conversation. In it, the two talk about their upbringings, their faith journey and Bart's deconstruction of faith, their values and more.

Is it right, or not, to have biological children? The last time Bart addressed this issue in the podcast (Episode 514), it generated lots of passionate replies, including one listener in particular whose angry email we read aloud in this episode. Since we didn't feel we did the subject justice last time, or the people for whom it's an important question, we're revisiting it, having received some newer emails seeking clarification on whether Bart thinks humanists should be having biological children. (Content warning: there are a few swears within this episode.)

Back from a summer vacation and into a wide-ranging conversation with Lisa Kentgen, a psychologist who's written a book called The Practice of Belonging: Six Lessons from Vibrant Communities to Combat Loneliness, Foster Diversity, and Cultivate Caring Relationships.

Robert Rooks is the CEO of REFORM Alliance, a criminal justice organization focused on transforming probation and parole systems. In this conversation with Bart Campolo, he talks about seeing the hardships in his community growing up, and how he became inspired to start to work on systemic change. In the process, Robert lays out some solid, practical things that listeners can do to help.

A listener asks: "Hi Bart, I just want to encourage you by communicating how much your podcast has helped me and is sustaining me in my deconversion journey. In your conversation earlier this month with Ursula Goodenough, you talked about a reverence and awe for the natural world, and I couldn’t help but think of a bible verse admonishing Christians to worship the Creator, rather than the created. I could see my Christian friends using that verse to tell we humanists that we’re guilty of worshipping the wrong thing. What do you think of this and how would you respond?"

It was only a matter of time before we got drawn into the burgeoning conversation about recent advances in artificial intelligence. A listener called Steve asks: "What do you think are the implications of AI for those of us devoted to the human experience?" Although he doesn't have a clear answer, and admits a catastrophist's bias, Bart shares some initial thoughts in response and argues that, even if the rise of AI is a very bad thing for the world, it can nevertheless reaffirm our existing humanist values and amplify the reasons to create supportive communities.

Featuring a 'cold open' by an artificial Bart-like interloper. Were you fooled?

You’re probably never going to be a saint. Even so, let’s face it: you could be a better person. We all could. Todd May is a philosopher whose work brings high-minded philosophical concepts - like how to live a decent life - down to earth in attainable, realistic ways. In this conversation with Bart Campolo, Todd talks about aspiring to be decent, moral gracefulness, reasons for morality, intentions, honesty and truthfulness, happiness versus flourishing, altruism, the concept of evil, 'normal' selfishness, stoicism and Todd's work on The Good Place.

Two questions are posed to Bart, the first of which he declines to answer! Iain McGilchrist is one of several prominent thinkers who seem to suggest that consciousness is a fundamental of the universe, and that reality may not be entirely physical in nature. What does Bart think of these ideas? The second involves a listener whose liberal Christian friend can't understand her atheism. How can she articulate her disinterest to her friend?

Sasha Sagan is an author and now a podcaster who is intensely curious about the rituals, traditions, norms and practices which help define communities of people. When we had her on the podcast in 2020, it was because Sasha had released a book on the subject, For Small Creatures Such As We. The recent launch of her podcast, Strange Customs, inspired us to reach back out and ask her how rituals might find their place in today's world.

After Bart's deconversion from Christianity, he has been a 'naturalist', lacking belief in any of the proposed deities and supernatural ideas. But how satisfied is he that he's right about this? How surprised would he be to suddenly emerge into an afterlife of some kind? Bart and producer John discuss.

We've recently been wondering about the movement in Kentucky that has become known as the 'Asbury revival', and the mass religious experiences that have been reported there in the last couple of months. We could think of nobody better to help us think about it than TM Luhrmann, a highly esteemed psychological anthropologist currently based at Stanford University. Tanya is known partly for her study of religious groups, including evangelical and charismatic Christians. In this conversation with Bart Campolo, she talks about the 'inner sense' of believers that their beliefs are true, how religions allow these experiences to form the heart of their narratives, religious shame, authority, imagination and self-reinforcement, and more.

“Hey Bart, I came across an article on Vox talking about the movement known as Effective Altruism, and the fall of one of its star advocates, cryptocurrency exchange owner Sam Bankman-Fried. The guy had lost at least a billion dollars of his clients’ money after he secretly transferred it to a hedge fund he owned, he’s now been arrested for it. But what’s confusing is that his stated goal in life was to do good: he said wanted to make a lot of money in finance so he could give most of it away to good causes, specifically causes identified using Effective Altruism. Paraphrasing from the Vox article: 'Effective altruism is a social movement that’s all about using reason and evidence to do the most good for the most people. … Yet it looks like Bankman-Fried has done a lot of BAD to a lot of people.' On top of this, Bart, I know there have been other criticisms of Effective Altruism, and I was just wondering if you have any thoughts on whether a good humanist - and maybe especially a Humanize Me listener - should be involved in Effective Altruism or whether it’s a dubious proposition these days. Thanks!”

We're joined by leading bible scholar Bart Ehrman, who has written many New York Times best-selling books on the Bible and related topics. This conversation is, in Ehrman's own summation, a blend of the intellect and the heart, touching on many things including belief and disbelief, the way people misinterpret Scripture, the message of Jesus compared to that of Paul or the book of Revelation, how to relate to people who throw bible verses around, and many other things. Stay tuned at the end for a piece of the conversation that almost ended up on the cutting room floor.

In lieu of a full episode this time, here's a short, hopeful thought from a sick-sounding Bart Campolo.

Bart and John respond to a question from a listener who, despite knowing her grandfather was going to die, missed his final moments and feels deep regret about it. Bart suggests she look at it as a gift from her grandfather which could serve her well for a lifetime: and a valuable reminder to all of us about the virtue of being present.

Josh Kaufman won NBC’s The Voice in 2014 after wowing the talent show’s judges and audience with his soulful vocals and charisma. After getting an email from him recently, Bart invited Josh on the podcast to ask about his story of deconversion from Christianity in college and subsequent re-conversion in recent years, and wonders what it’s like to step back into a worldview he had rejected.

Bart answers a question from a listener who is nervous going into a fraught holiday gathering. In the process we talk about some tools that may be prepared for use beforehand.

After a recent rise in talk of antisemitism, we couldn't help but think about this classic episode of Humanize Me featuring the hosts of the Unorthodox podcast, Mark Oppenheimer, Stephanie Butnick and Liel Leibovitz. They're some of our favorite people, and it's a fun conversation about Jewishness in America, Jewish culture, and how to be a good gentile. Featuring a new intro by Bart.

Our bodies are tied up with so much - beauty standards, phobias, obsessions and stigmas - and we think there are more and less humanizing ways to talk and think about them. Molly Robbins was the perfect guest to help us; she's the host of the My Big Fat Recovery podcast, and has lots of helpful things to say about the experience of having a big body in a diet-obsessed culture. Bart asks Molly about the principles of 'intuitive eating' and other topics.

Bart answers a question from a listener whose habits while living alone make her feel bad about herself. Bart thinks he may have some solid humanist advice as a first step.

Cian is a listener of Humanize Me. He and his wife Krista got in touch to talk about the very tangible and personal way the U.S. Supreme Court’s strike-down of Roe v Wade hit them after they ended a pregnancy due to fetal abnormality. Bart decided to invite them to tell their story on the podcast and in the process, Krista and Cian relate in a warm, compelling way the complex reality of the issue in a real couple's lives.

What’s wrong with Rotary? Does religion comfort people in hard times? Is it wrong to want my wife to stop pleasuring herself? How do you find a good media diet? Should I support my friend as she explores religion? Bart and John take not 1 but 5 listener questions, and share thoughts on each.

Bart welcomes back Dave Warnock, who had a memorable first appearance in 2019 (Episode 419). They talk about his recently released memoir, his deconversion from Christianity and later diagnosis of ALS, relationships with family after deconverting, navigating the end of life, and avoiding the word 'just'.

Bart enjoys a wide-ranging conversation with Bill Deresiewicz that touches on solitude, moral goodness, the value of the arts, the interplay of power, rituals and practices, fundamentalisms and friendship. Bill is a world-class literary critic and a former professor of English at Yale University whose latest book of essays - The End of Solitude - is available now.

Fine, a listener says, you've sold me on the concept that life can be meaningful even if there isn't a grand design involved. But how do we actually do it? Bart and John discuss.

Game designer Logan Dean talks with Bart about the nature of play, storytelling, community, competitiveness and how playing games can help us understand others.

A classic episode! Amber Scorah was raised as a Jehovah's Witness. She tells the story of her 'deconversion' in her book, 'Leaving the Witness: Exiting a Religion and Finding a Life'. In this conversation with Bart Campolo, Amber talks about what it was like to believe fully, what it's like to disbelieve now, how her relationships were affected, the death of her young son Karl on his first day in childcare, her views on life now, and much more.

Bart and John respond to a question from a listener who worries that, having started a journey out of his faith, he is now becoming incompatible with his Christian girlfriend. Bart thinks their difference in worldview is a reason for lots of caution and reflection, while John wishes romance could rule the day. Along the way, they land on some ancient advice: ‘Know thyself!’

John and Bart are back in the studio together on this week’s episode to discuss the nature of character and how to evaluate the character of others.

Bart responds to a question from a listener who says they have less tolerance for social interaction since society 'opened back up' after the pandemic lockdowns.

Bart muses an experience he's heard recently: a former Christian who, in the process of re-evaluating their lives, begins to consider opening their relationship. Is it a good idea? Bart has seen it work, but has lots of words of caution.

After a podcast hiatus, Bart and John attempt to answer a question from a listener about being stressed out about the war in Ukraine. They don't want to just avoid the news, because that doesn't feel healthy, but are seeking a good balance of being informed and enjoying their life.